The Worst Greek Hero? || The Roast of Agamemnon

"Hero" has a different meaning in modern times compared to Ancient Greece. Most heroes in Greek Mythology actually commit some pretty terrible acts. Today we're looking at one of the famous Greek Heroes of the Trojan War, King Agamemnon. Why do I dislike him so much? Mainly because it's fun to do so and I'm a silly billy but he makes it so easy! But I do go into a bit more detail...and get about as angry as my shy British self can get.

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Sources:
The Odyssey
The Iliad
The Orestia
My own blind hatred

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Greeks and Geeks, the podcast where I take us on a persnickity but fun journey discussing our favourite stories. I’m your host Sabrina and today, in our last episode of the series, we’re going to be doing something a little bit different. I’m putting the books down, abandoning the notes and not even so much as thinking of JSTOR. This is going to be a real, unfiltered roast of one of Greek mythologies most famous heroes.

The thing about me is that I really do try to be as nice and polite as I possibly can. I am often the Aziraphale to my friends Crowley if you will. However there are certain topics or even phrases that will set me off on angry rants of epic proportions. Stuff like the magic Stonehenge microchips in Halloween 3 (which I yelled about in a previous episode entitled Kiki’s Delivery Service vs the Satanic Panic), Microtransactions in video games and when people call chorizo “choritzo” WHERE’S THE T?! WHERE IS THE TEA?! You get the idea. One thing that gets my blood boiling the most though, are characters or books I hate. I don’t often hate characters or books but when I do, ohhhhh you bet I’ll hate them with every fibre of my soul. 

So lets get into it with our first ever Greeks and Geeks roast. The roast of the great Greek King, Agamemnon.

(MUSIC)

Agamemnon was a famous Greek King, one of the wealthiest kings if not the richest king in Greece at the time around the Trojan war. His great great grandfather was a man named Tantalus, a famous inhabitant of Tartarus for attempting to test the gods omnipotence by feeding his son to the Gods. So already off to a great start! But I suppose it’s unfair to judge someone based on their family. Ok let’s judge him on a wealth instead. He’s a rich monarch. That automatically puts my back up. But hey. Some people are wealthy, doesn’t mean they’re bad right? They could donate to charity, they could be like Henry VII who loved his wife and wanted an end to the bloodshed of the War of the Roses and who just seemed like a good bloke. He could have been like Mansa Musa, thought to have been the richest person who ever lived but who was also known for his generosity towards those in need. He COULD have been all these things.

But Agamemnon is more Musk than Musa, more Henry VIII over Henry VI. Instead of focusing on the needs of his people and subjects, he abandoned them to kickstart a war all to get his brothers wife back.

Sidenote mini roast of Agamemnon’s brother Menelaus here. His wife Helen often gets a bad rep for running off with Paris but Menelaus was off hunting or something at the time when she ran off. It’s ANCIENT TIMES and the dude decides “herp a derp, I’m gonna go off and leave my wife ( my wife who is known to be the most beautiful and originally most sought after bachelorette in antiquity) alone with this strange (and also beautiful) man who I’ve just met. I’m sure NOTHING BAD WILL HAPPEN.” Bloody idiot. For one thing, that’s not showing very good xenia (hospitality- a big thing in ancient Greece), and for another thing well it’s not showing very good genre awareness is it? 

Listen I’m just saying, when Johnathan Harker entered Draculas castle and was like “huh, this guy crawling up walls sure is weird- welp anyways better write down that paprika recipe for my future wife omg I love her so much!” we love him because he’s not genre aware but he’s also not hurting anyone and nobody knew what a Dracula was in his time anyways so he gets a free pass. He’s trying his best. He’s doing his job. It’s hard being a 20 something at an entry level position you know? Leave him alone. On the other hand, Menelaus is a KING. He’s a king in ancient times. He should bloody well know better. And his lack of genre awareness causes death and suffering to tons of people.

Which makes Agamemnon even worse! You abandon your people, your family, to help your idiot brother sort his messes out. And I know, I know the Greek kings made a pact with each other to wage war if Helen was stolen (which, by the way, ICK) but at that point I reckon the convo should have gone like this. 

M: Bro! Help! My wife got nicked!

A: Oh dang! How’d that happen? 

M: I left her alone in a house with a stranger and he ran off with her.

A:…. Sorry, you what mate? 

And Agamemnon kicks Menelaus out of his palace for being an idiot and Menaleus cries and goes home. No innocent children get sacrificed, no decades long wars and war wives like Penelope don’t have to put up with all those disgusting men in her house! Unfortunately, Odysseus (another King, this time of Ithica) had a grand old plan that all the Greek kings should make a pact that if anyone steals Helen, then the kings have to wage war on the kingdom that person comes from. It was seen as a great idea at the time since literally everyone was after Helen, the most misogynistic failsafe of all time! Jokes on Odysseus, who literally tried to hide when the soldiers told him it was time to armour up and head to Troy because HAHAHA IT’S SO FUN TO SEW WAIT WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TO REAP NOW?! AHHH MANNN.

Listen. All I’m saying is that when I was a teenager I lost my bank card and someone used it to steal most of the money I had in my account, which was the money I had from my part-time job at the time. This was right before Christmas. Anyways the bank wouldn’t give me my money back despite the fraudulent behaviour because I couldn’t prove whether or not my bank card was stolen or if I’d lost it (I’m now sure it was stolen as I never did find that card). So they said it was neglect on my part and I never saw that money again. Now as an adult I know I should have called the police and reported it as stolen and as fraud but that’s not my point here. My point is A: Insurance/Ancient Greek Pacts shouldn’t be enacted in cases of neglect (such as in the case of Menelaus) and B: Don’t let your teenage children bank with Barclays.

But this isn’t a coulda woulda shoulda. This is an Agamemnon did…a. And what did he do? He packed up a whole bunch of mostly innocent men (this is ancient times after all), most of whom were going to die, and off he went to Troy, collecting more Greek Kings along the way. Like “remember the pact bros!” “remember the pact!” Listen, I know men have the bro code, but a decade long war is a bit much isn’t it? At some point the bro code is more like a bro law, which then turns into a bro bill, to a full on declaration of brodependence. And this brodependence ends up killing SO. MANY. BROS. It’s a bro bloodbath! A broodbath if you will. This is why women live longer than men, I’m just sayin.

Oh but lets not jump ahead to Troy oh nonononono we have to get stuck into what is, my opinion, the worst of his crimes. When ol’ Agamemnon took his murderyness into his own family.

So Agamemnon and his gang were trying to set sail and get the war started right? But they couldn’t get off a beach. He had apparently angered Artemis which, bruh, what are you doing offending one of the coolest goddesses? Are you high? Do you not know how ruthless Artemis is? And some stupid seer Calchas, told him “hey the gods are angry at you, why don’t you sacrifice your daughter?” and instead of yeeting Calchas off a very tall place “THIS IS SPARTA” style (I mean to be fair, Menelaus was the king of Sparta but STILL- siblings copy each other all the time!) he’s like “oh yeah, that’s sounds reasonable.”

Gjlkjgdkljgdl yeah alright mate! Now in some retellings he’s pretty horrified and agonised and oh no I’m having to fridge my own child also what’s a fridge boo hoo hoo. But here’s the thing. HE STILL DOES IT. He still sacrifices his own daughter. BEST OF THE GREEKS!? Yeah if the best Greeks regularly kill their kids to take part in a stupid war for your equally stupid brother. And Colchas is equally moronic. If you had the power to convince a king to SACRIFICE HIS CHILD TO THE GODS, surely you could have been like “the gods are angry at you, you need to give all the poor people in your kingdom lots of money” or even “the gods are angry, you need to cook everyone a nice steak” because honestly have you ever had Wagyu?! Infinitely better than child sacrifice let me tell you.

But you know what? Maybe the absolute numptiness runs in the family, for Agamemnon really doesn’t stop to think “gee I wonder if this will make my wife and family upset with me.” No not in the slightest. Then he leaves for 10 years and lets Clytemnestra (his wife) sit and come up with some clever ideas for revenge. He just kills poor Iphiginea and what’s worse is that he tricks his wife and daughter into it. Under the pretense that poor young Iphiginea will marry Achilles, her and Clytemnestra journey to their camp, where they proceed to realise that this isn’t a ceremony in the slightest. Can you imagine that? Thinking you’re going to marry the strongest, most handsome demigod in all of Greece? (at least to teenage girls, I’m sure it must be the equivalent to marry Timothy Chamolet or Tom Holland or something. For my generation it would have probably been David Tenant or Titanic-era Leonardo Dicaprio). Can you imagine? Thinking you’re about to marry your celebrity crush and instead be slaughtered like a common pig for sacrifice? My only solace is that there are some versions of the myth where Artemis swaps out Iphiginea for a deer and has her secretly survive.

But it doesn’t matter whether Iphiginea survived or not! What matters is Agamemnon was prepared to kill his own child for a war that wasn’t even with someone he was beefing with! The beef has gone TOO FAR! It’s a whole bloody ham up in here! But it’s bad beef! It’s not Wagyu at all! I know that doesn’t make any sense but I’m UPSET, ok?

Speaking of the Artemis-ex-machina, that is an example of an ancient retcon. The great Athenian playwright Euripides was the one who thought “nah man, this is way too dark” and he added the part about Artemis saving Iphiginea at the last minute. So we know that even the ancient Greeks were giving Agamemnon the bombastic side eye here. The CRIMINAL OFFENSIVE SIDE EYE even.

Ok NOW lets move to the war. This is where I need to abandon my usual scholarly rhetoric of “let’s put aside our modern culture and biases as much as we can and analyse this from the cultural context of the time.” because to quote LEGO Batman NO I DON’T WANNA DOOOO THAT. Because when you talk about women like they’re nothing but objects for you to use, I’m gonna throw that cultural bias at you like a batarang because EW.

What am I referring to? So the war has gone on for almost a decade at this point. And the oh so wonderful Greek Heroes have gotten spoils of war along the way. Not just treasure, but women. Actual women they treat as spoils of war. Oh yay! Oh so wonderful! Gee isn’t that swell? Can you tell I’m being sarcastic?! Anyways Agamemnon is made to give up one of his women, essentially a slave of the worst kind, a prisoner of war, and let her go back to her father who is a priest of Apollo. If he doesn’t, he risks angering the Gods again. Now I suppose I ought to give a modicum of credit here and say, yay! Agamemnon let his war prisoner go! Hip hip hooray! You did a good thing…Good Job! The bar is in Tartarus.

But I can’t even give him kudos for letting a stolen woman go back to her family. Not just because he stole her in the first place, but because any respect he might have earned is immediately eviscerated by him demanding another hero’s woman. Like a toddler throwing a tantrum, Agamemnon is missing a toy and now he wants to take someone elses and ugh even calling a war prisoner a “toy” as a joke just gave me the ick. I gave myself the ick. Blegh. GOOD JOB MILLENIA OLD CHARACTER YOU JUST MADE ME GIVE MYSELF THE ICK. God I hate him so much. So he takes Achilles war bride, causing Achilles to lose his ever-loving mind and refuse to fight. 

I don’t understand how anyone can be considered The Best of The Greeks, or an amazing king or hero when he angers his most valuable fighter in such a way. And make no mistake, Achilles is a demigod whose mother has Zeus’ ear. He is the most powerful fighter. Without him, the Greeks suffer immensely. Not only because he indirectly asks Zeus to make the Greeks suffer without him (because Achilles is petty like that), but because Achilles really is that good of a fighter. There’s a reason why, if you pull a random person from the street, they would know Achilles but they wouldn’t know Diomedes or whatever. It’s kinda Achilles thing.

So you miff off your best fighter and now they refuse to fight. Then, when you EVENTUALLY realise you beefed up (and this is many deaths later), you don’t even deign to visit Achilles to make amends yourself. You send other people to do your dirty work for you, which I know he’s a monarch so he’s used to doing that, but come on man! Just swallow your pride. Although I do have to say the same thing to Achilles here, as he is also being a petulant man baby.

I act like I hate the Iliad, but I absolutely don’t. I prefer the Odyssey, but the Iliad is great. It’s dramatic, horrific, tragic and, I know it’s a cliché, but it’s truly Epic. But more than that, it’s a MESS. It’s soooo messy and, as previously established, I’m a nosy nelly. Besides, it’s super violent in an almost comical way. Just thought I’d say that- my beef is with Agamemnon, not The Iliad.

Let’s flashforward to the end of the war now. Troy has fallen at last, and Agamemnon takes yet another prisoner of war- the Priestess Cassandra. Now Cassandra is also a prophet, but one who was cursed by Apollo to never be believed. She has a premonition of hers and Agamemnons death if he brings her home, but of course he doesn’t believe her. Now I can’t actually blame Agamemnon for this, because he’s just a man. He can’t get around a literal god given curse.

BUT.

I think he really ought to have listened to Cassandra here, not because what she’s saying is true but also it’s the fact that its common sense? You’re bringing your war slave, one whom you’ve clearly used (in the most awful way) to cheat on your wife Clytemnestra, you’re bringing HER home?! Hey honey! Sorry that war went on for so long. Are you over the fact that I killed our daughter yet? Well, I have something to cheer you up! Here’s my war bride! I’m sure you two will get along swimmingly.

Do you get it? Swimmingly? Cause…in one version Clytemnestra kills him in the bathtub? Dark humour! 

But honestly I have no idea how Agamemnon made it this far alive. How he managed to survive the Trojan war without a mass mutiny against him by the regular soldiers is something I can only explain by the fact that his allies, the other kings and rulers, were elite fighters in their own kind and it wouldn’t have gone well for any mutineers at all. That’s the only explanation I have for him surviving that long. But eventually his many awful decisions catch up to him. I know I was being a bit silly before, fake-quoting Agamemnon’s return home and his first meeting back and his reunion with Clytemnestra, but it goes pretty much like that.

He comes home after ten years at war, all full of himself and his achievements. He expects his wife to be loving and greet him warmly. He expects his wife to have been faithful, to have been sitting obediently and dutifully waiting for his return (and oooh we’ll get to that little rant of his later). Not once does he acknowledge that his sacrificing their daughter was absolutely messed up. Then he introduces Clytemnestra to Cassandra and EXPECTS HIS WIFE TO LOOK AFTER HER. It’s at this point that I have to think the part of his brain reserved for tact is instead replaced with nothing but The Audacity. HONESTLY. I don’t know how Clytemnestra kept it together the way she did.

But keep it together she absolutely did, enough for her and her lover to murder him in the bathtub. Surprise, surprise! She never forgot how he treated their daughter and how he left for ten years to fight in a war over a woman- who happens to be her sister. Can you imagine if your spouse left you for ten years because of your sibling?! And even though her actions led her to lose her life, her anger was too great to let go of and I probably need to do an episode about Clytemnestra in the future- aka the Worst Wife in Greek Mythology, as she seems to have gotten the Circe treatment of feminist retellings in recent years. If this is something you’re interested in you can message me and I’ll let you know how at the end of the podcast.

Anywhos, you would think that death would shut the man up but OHOHOHO APPARENTLY NOT.

There’s a part of the Odyssey where Odysseus has to venture into the underworld or…well sort of. He kind of goes to the entrance of the underworld and the ghosts he needs to speak to come to him. This is also part of the Odyssey where Odysseus is recounting this particular adventure himself and one thing you need to know about him is Odysseus is kind of liar? At least a very unreliable narrator. So we don’t know if he’s actually telling the truth here.

But I’m going to act like he’s being 100% truthful because it helps my anti-Agamemnon agenda. At least I’m open with my bias!

Agamemnon appears to Odysseus as a ghost and you would think he would have something important to say, you know, being a ghost. Maybe give Odysseus a bit of advice on how to get home? Maybe actually be helpful?

Well I’m sure you agree with that because you, dear listener, are sensible, and unlike Agamemnon, you probably care about *gasp* other people besides yourself. As it stands, Agamemnon can only think about himself and his woes and espouts some of the most incel-tier nonsense I’ve ever heard.

Let’s hear from the clown himself shall we? Yes I know I said I was going to put the books and stuff away. I LIED ok? I need you to hear his words so you can know how much of an actual donut this dude is.

“When I got back home I thought I would be welcomed, at least by my slaves and my children”

*WHEEZE* YES THOSE LOVELY SLAVES! THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO GREET THE PERSON WHO LITERALLY OWNS THEM. OH OF COURSE! I’M SO SORRY AGAMEMNON YOU’RE TOTALLY RIGHT! Let’s hear what he said about his wife. I would say that it only gets worse from here, but I think the slaves thing is worse than sexism. Let’s just say it doesn’t get any better! So here’s what he says about Clytemnestra…

“She has such an evil mind that that she has poured down shame on her own head and on all other women, even the good ones.”

You can’t tell right now but I’m vibrating in anger. So the actions of one woman makes the ENTIRE gender bad? Alright mate, how about we condemn all of men kind for the fact that you literally tricked your daughter into getting sacrificed. Screw all the good that men have done over the centuries. You’re ALL SHAMED because of Agamemnon the same way ALL WOMEN are shamed by Clytemnestra. Get outta here, Nelson Mandela, Screw you Malala! And every doctor who ever worked for doctors without borders? SHAME ON YOU. YOU’RE SHAMED. I’M SHAMED. WE’RE ALL SHAMED.

Ok I need to calm down now because I’m starting to sound like the end of Shakespearian play.

What’s crazy is that these are only like a handful of the lines he speaks. I’m giving you the highlight of his awfulness. Right here we’re going to get into the true redpill theorising. And you know what I told a lie earlier, he does actually give Odysseus some advice. You wanna know what it is?

“So you must never treat your wife too well.”

*breathes* 

I apologise for the angry breathing in this episode but I’m just so cross I’m actually giving myself a little bit of a tummy ache. Thank god I have yoga after this!

So there’s a lot to unpack from this right? Cause right now I’m standing there confused like that John Travolta gif. MY BROTHER IN ZEUS, WHERE ON EARTH DID YOU TREAT CLYTEMNESTRA WELL? WAS IT WHEN YOU ABSONDONED HER FOR 10 YEARS? WHEN YOU MURDERED HER DAUGHTER OR WHEN YOU BROUGHT A GIRL BACK HOME AND ASKED HER TO LOOK AFTER HER?! CAN YOU PLEASE POINT IT OUT. PLEASE HELP ME SEE. I HAVE ASTIGMATISM AND I NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE.

And finally, to add proper insult to injury, to put the cherry on the sexist sundae that makes up Agamemnon’s psyche, he asks Odysseus about his son but not for his remaining daughter. Because do you expect this man to be any different now? Since all women are ruined forever obviously.

Then they both cry together, mourning the loss and betrayal, and Agamemnon returns to the underworld where he belongs. But his views about women continue on internet forums and twitter for all time. Truly, his legacy is an honourable one.

And that’s a summary of Agamemnon. One of my least favourite characters in all of Greek Mythology. I feel like we got a little heated there didn’t we? Ok I did, you guys were just listening to my angry rant. I hope you enjoyed it!

So that was series one of Greek and Geeks. I hope you enjoyed it! Season 2 will arrive in the Spring. If you want to follow me as I develop season 2, you can sign up to my mailing list for exclusive insights and for up-to-date knowledge of the release date. You can also follow the podcast on Spotify and follow me on twitter or tiktok. All the links for these are in the summary of this episode. And as always please don’t forget to rate the podcast, and review if you’re listening via apple and tell your friends! Word of mouth is apparently the top way podcasts get off the ground.

Thank you for listening to Series 1 of Greeks and Geeks. I’ve absolutely loved chatting with, or rather at you guys. But for now I’ve been your host Sabrina and I’m Geeking out! See you next time, bye!