Epic the Musical: The Troy Saga with Jorge Rivera-Herrans

Jorge Rivera-Herrans returns to discuss Epic the Musical: The Troy Saga with me! The first saga of Epic: The Musical starts off before the events of The Odyssey, at the crux of the Trojan war, the 10 year long epic struggle between the Greeks and the Trojans. It is a dramatic saga filled with Gods, battles and a choice which will haunt Odysseus throughout the entire musical.

But what are the sources which inspired the musical? In this episode we'll discuss the differences in the ancient texts (such as The Odyssey and The Illiad) and Epic. We'll also be analysing the characters, the themes and the music.

Thank you to Jorge for returning for this episode and the other sagas too (also for creating an outstanding musical). Here's a link to his socials:

Listen to Epic the Musical now!
Follow Jorge on Tiktok

Follow me!
Tiktok: @SabrinaSalisburyWriter
Instagram: @sabrinasalisburywriter

Sources:
Epic: The Musical by Jorge Rivera-Herrans
The Iliad translated by Emily Wilson
The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson
Troy by Stephen Fry
Great Courses Odyssey of Homer- Elizabeth Vandiver, Ph.D.
Great Courses Aeneid of Virgil- Elizabeth Vandiver, Ph.D.
The Aeneid- Virgil

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Greeks and Geeks, the podcast where I take us on persnickity but fun journey deep diving into the lore behind our favourite stories. I’m your host Sabrina and this is the third episode of a series long-deep dive into Epic: The Musical. So pony up, lads! We’re heading to war as we analyse Epic: The Troy Saga and stick around ‘til the end as the creator of Epic, Jorge Rivera-Herrans will be returning to discuss the saga with us.

As a brief recap, Epic: The Musical is a Greek mythology inspired concept album created and composed by Jorge Rivera-Herrans. It’s a loose adaptation of the Odyssey, the epic ancient poem by Homer about the King of Ithica, Odysseus, and his terrible no good very bad extra long journey home after fighting in the Trojan War for 10 years. In the last episode, I summarised the Odyssey, mainly focusing on the first half, discussed the themes of both Epic: The Music and the Odyssey and broke down the character of Odysseus as presented in the original poem. It’s a bit of a Odyssey 101 so I recommend going back and listening to that if you want a lot more detail on the sources which the musical is based on.

Today we’re going to break down each song in the Troy saga, starting with the very first song in the musical- The Horse and The Infant.

(MUSIC BREAK)

The Horse and the Infant starts during the fall of Troy, of which our hero Odysseus, is one of the main architects. Literally. It was his idea to build the horse.

But lets back up a little bit and do a “hey it’s me, you’re probably wondering how I ended up in the belly of a wooden horse” kinda shamooly. The Trojan war was one of the most important moments in Greek mythology. In an inciting incident which should be familiar to those who enjoy fairy tales, Eris (the goddess of discord- no not the chatty app although she probably is goddess of that now) took offense when she wasn’t invited to a grand celebration, a wedding between the goddess Thetis and mortal King Peleus (the parents of the Greek hero Achilles). In response, she ended up causing a kerfuffle that resulted in a 10 year long war. With the help of a golden apple, she started an argument between 3 goddesses (Athena, Hera and Aphrodite) over who was the fairest and they could only settle it with the help of a prince of Troy, Paris.

After much bribing, Paris chose Aphrodite as the fairest goddess and Aphrodite offered him Helen of Sparta as a prize of sorts. Problem? She was already married the Menelaus, King of Sparta. Helen was the daughter of Zeus and the most beautiful woman to exist. There had been a fierce competition for her hand in marriage. So Odysseus, the King of Ithica, thought that they should create a bro code. If anyone dared to steal Helen away (a likelihood as she had been kidnapped before, even when she was a child. Yet another reason to despite Theseus and ohohoho I could rant on about Theseus but I’d be here all day). Anyways! If anyone tried to steal Helen, all the Greek kingdoms would rise up and go to war to rescue her and probably get some loot and glory along the way. Sounds like a sweet deal!

Well considering our boy Oddy did everything to dodge the draft when the time came maybe not. To be fair, he did it because his wife Penelope asked him to. She’d seen an oracle who’d fortold of Odysseus’ long absence. Odysseus pretended to be mad to get out of going, until one of the soldiers sent to fetch him threatened his son, which made him drop the act and off he went to meet up with the rest of the troops. I alluded to this last episode when I discussed Odysseus’ ruthlessness, but he framed that soldier for treason years later, and the soldier was executed for his supposed crime.

Also, this wasn’t just a war amongst the humans. The gods got stuck into it too. Some, like Athena and Hera were on the side of the Greeks. Others, like Apollo, wanted to help the Trojans. Add arrogant kings and demigods into the mix and you’ve got yourself a bloodbath of literally epic proportions.

So The Horse and The Infant is set during some of the final moments of the Trojan War. Which our man declares has been ten years. Ten years of war they killed us slowly he says.

Yeah cause at this point, a lot of the heroes in the war are in fact, dead as doornails. Most notably the two greatest fighters on both sides, the demigod Achilles for the Greeks and Hector, prince of Troy, for the Trojans.

It’s at this point that I need to confess something. At the start of this podcast I told you that Epic: The Musical is a loosely based retelling of the Odyssey and whilst that’s true for most of it, it isn’t exactly true for the first few songs.

The first few songs lean more heavily on Homers The Illiad, the Anaeid by Virgil and a whole host of “mini epics” which have sadly been lost to us over the years, but for which we know about because ancient historians and playwrights wrote about them, and we have THOSE writings at least. Thank you ancient people! 

The Iliad is set during the last year of the Trojan war and ends with Prince Hector’s burial after Achilles has killed him. When I first read it I was like Zuko in that Avatar meme. “That can’t be it??? Where’s the rest of it? WHERE’S THE HORSE?!” Well, my friends, the wooden horse comes later. The Lost Epics pick up from this. We know for example, that there’s a small epic about the death of Achilles. It is in these lost epics, and Virgil’s Aeneid (an epic written centuries later in Ancient Rome- during the reign of the first emperor Augustus), where we discover that it was Odysseus’ idea to build the Trojan horse.

This is Odysseus’ kleos. It is why, as mentioned in the last episode, he cries when the bard sings about his plan to end the war via such trickery. Because of Odysseus’ plan, to stowaway soldiers inside the belly of a wooden horse, the ten-year war comes to a final end. Final yes, but brutal.

At the start of the song we have Odysseus giving orders to Diomedes, Agamemnon, Menelaus and a whole host of other characters. These were other leaders of Greece, Agamemnon being the “king of kings.” These are the elite kings, the best of all of the Greeks, as the Iliad would say. And in this moment, Odysseus is telling them all what to do. It highlights his powers of strategy and the respect given to him by his peers, his fellow kings.
Then he yells that fateful line, “attack” and an epic orchestral musical sequence begins. The Fall of Troy. Now I want to state that the fall of Troy was seen as so genuinely horrific that even the gods felt a sense of shock and dismay at the brutality of the Greeks here. This moment in the musical doesn’t quite convey the brutality of it, and we’ll get to that more in Full Speed Ahead, but this isn’t a criticism. Rather I think it focuses more on Odysseus kleos, his moment of glory and victory due to his smarts. It’s supposed to be his moment of triumph and to go into too much detail about the fall of Troy would probably make audiences turn away from the Greeks too much.
Now the Infant comes in. Zeus sends Odysseus a vision of a grown-up son of Prince Hector, come to take revenge on everyone. If Odysseus wants to save his wife and son, he must kill the infant son of Prince Hector by throwing him from the walls of Troy. Here is an example too, of Odysseus’ pride. He believes he’s ready to do whatever it takes, until faced with what Zeus is actually asking him to do.
In the lost epics, such as the Little Iliad, it is Achilles son Neoptolemus, who kills Astyanax by throwing him from the walls without any divine interventions either. In others Odysseus convinced the rest of the Greeks Hectors son had to die for the very reasons that Zeus gives in The Horse and the Infant.
This is a fairly common trope in mythology. Sons rising up to avenge their fathers or mothers, think about Perseus in my episode Percy Jackson Vs Perseus. Remember this was a society without a modern judicial system, no courts. Blood prices (aka an eye for an eye) was very much a part of the way society ran. If someone hurt your family member, you had every right to deal with it. Sometimes by making them pay you money, others by hurting or maiming them. Even the Roman courts stayed out of family affairs centuries later. It was a valid fear to have.
So I believe that one of the reasons Zeus was brought in to explain this to listeners in The Horse and the Infant. He gives us background information as to the way society thinks at the time. But he’s also forcing Odysseus to make a choice, which Jorge will go into in more detail during our Chat With Jorge segment at the end of the episode!
For now, let’s move onto Just a Man
(MUSIC)
Just a Man
Just a Man gives us a much more psychological and emotional insight into Epic Odysseus as he grapples with the decision to kill the infant, ultimately deciding to drop the baby from Troy’s high walls.
He refers back to his son, Telemachus, and how he was just a baby when Odysseus left for war. This is something which plagues Epic Odysseus and crops up in other sagas too, when he mentions that he’s coming home and it’s “time to be the father I never was.” We know from myths Odysseus did everything he could to avoid being drafted into the war, even so far as pretending to be mad. His love for his son here is palpable. It is here that he shows us who he really is, his motivation to go back home at any cost.
So we have a song all about kleos, glory, in the horse and the infant. And now things are starting to shift more towards nostros- homecoming. For more about kleos and nostros, I suggest listening to the previous episode! Odysseus’ motivation throughout the rest of the musical will be entirely focused on getting home. Here we see how far that desire takes him.
“deep down I would trade the world to see my son and wife.”
This is an incredibly popular, haunting song. Perhaps one of the most popular, certainly one of the most viral, at the moment of this recording and it has something to do with these lines.
“But when does a comet become a meteor, when does a candle become a blaze, when does a man become a monster?”
Fantastic lyrics which shatter you as a listener and get into the theme. Kindness vs ruthlessness. How far are you willing to go to achieve nostros, Odysseus? When will something beautiful turn to something terrible and destructive? This is something Epic Odysseus and Myth Odysseus have in common. 
I mentioned in the previous episode that Odysseus was claimed to be a man of many twists and turns. Here we see it in musical form. The song starts soft, sweet, almost like a lullaby and Odysseus’ notes are a higher pitch. But as he finalises his decision, his voice gets lower, more determined to see his plan through. Homer’s Odysseus is chided by Circe, for the fact that his thoughts constantly turn to war, to destruction. However as established in the last episode, Homer’s Odysseus definitely leans more on the side of ruthlessness. He most likely wouldn’t have thought twice about yeeting the infant (and in other stories, he doesn’t). But for Epic Odysseus, we see him constantly struggle with it. Even when he makes the decision, he repeats “forgive me” three times, ending in that higher pitched “forgive me” showing that he’s still struggling, it’s still causing him pain to act this way.
That line “when does a man become a monster” is a constantly recurring motif throughout the musical. At what point, if any, will Odysseus lose his humanity to ruthlessness? 
Speaking of Kindness and Ruthlessness, lets look at two characters who embody those traits with the next songs
Full Speed Ahead and Open Arms.
(Music)
Full Speed ahead begins Odysseus journey home with his 600 men. But before we get to that journey and introducing some key characters, I want to discuss the length of time his journey takes. The idea of taking ten years to journey home after Troy, when by all accounts it shouldn’t have taken even a tenth of that (remember this is set around the Aegean and Mediterranean seas, not a mahusive distance by any stetch) is something of note. Was Odysseus just super unlucky? Was he a bad leader or sailor? Why did it take so long?
Well, he wasn’t the only one to struggle with his nostros- his homecoming. The Greek Kings, the victors, all had terrible nostros’ nostroses? What is the plural there? Anyways, there homecomings were terrible one way or another, if they even managed to get home at all.
Of course we have Odysseus, taking ten years to get home and losing all his men in the process.
Then we have Agamemnon, who arrived home but was shortly murked by his (in my opinion rightfully) angry wife Clytemnestra. For reasons why, see my Agamemnon episode.
We have Little Ajax, who was drowned at sea, due to the wrath of Athena.
And even King Menelaus and Queen Helen took 8 years to return to Sparta, which is even closer to Troy than Ithica.
So yeah it might have been full speed ahead but…like…not really. Not for any of them. Why was this?
Well their difficult homecomings are seen as a retaliation, a punishment for the Greeks, for their abhorrent cruelties to the Trojans during the fall of Troy at the end of the war. 3 major offenses were committed which shocked and angered even the gods, such as Athena, who favoured the Greeks to begin with. I’m going to go into them but bear in mind that to keep things PG I will be sanitising the language of what happens somewhat.
The first great offense is the murder of the infant Astayanax, which we mentioned previously. Unlike in the Horse and the Infant, none of the Gods ordered this killing to take place. It was simply the Greeks being crummy.
The second great offense was from Achilles son Neoptolemus. He really doesn’t come across well in any of the stories or sources I’ve read about him to be honest, and that’s me being British and putting things mildly. To put it bluntly he was a massive wazzock. No wazzock is too nice. But I can’t repeat what I want to call him, PG podcast and all that! In some sources Neoptolemus was actually the killer of Asayanax too so that means he’s the cause of 2 out of the 3 great offenses. What a guy. 
So what did he do? Well first let’s discuss Priam, the wise old king of Troy. Priam was much beloved, had an inordinate amount of children and was generally quite kind. He was one of the few people who didn’t blame Helen for her abduction, and was actually nice to her. Even the Greeks respected him. After his son Hector was killed, he begged Achilles for his body back and the two cried over their losses together. As far as ancient kings go, I like him you know? Got a bit of a soft spot for the guy.
Anyways Neoptolemus slaughters him. Cuts his throat at Priam’s alter in some sources, whilst PRIAM IS PRAYING TO THE GODS. A grand old king, and Neoptolemus kills him like a pig to be sacrificed. It gets worse though. He did this in front of Priam’s wife and younger children too. I don’t think I’m alone when I say hecking yikes my dude.
The third great offense is the one I have to sanitise the most. You might be familiar with the Princess Cassandra. Daughter of Priam, she became a priestess of Apollo. However when she scorned Apollo, he cursed her so that all of her (real) prophecies would go ignored. She saw the fall of Troy coming and, when it did, she fled to alter of Athena, praying to the goddess for sanctuary for mercy. However. Little Ajax (also know as Ajax the Lesser), did not, in fact, stay back as per Odysseus’ instructions in The Horse and The Infant. Instead, he dragged Cassandra, kicking and pleading, from the alter and he assaulted her. This was too much for even the Greek-loving Athena to bear. Hence why she killed Little Ajax and most of his fleet, drowning him on the way home from Troy.
To which I say, good for her. It’s difficult to talk about that last one. I get so angry thinking about how Cassandra was treated.
There were other offenses which occurred during the fall of Troy but those three are the main ones cited as the greatest ones and you can see why. You can also see why Epic: The Musical only covers one of these. To cover all of these offenses would, one, take away from Odysseus’ story and two, make it extremely hard to rooting for any of the Greeks moving forward. If even Athena turned on them, you can’t expect modern audiences to keep rooting for them.
I just wanted to give you a bit of background which explains a bit more why the Greeks took so long to get home, or didn’t get home, or immediately got yeeted into Hades when they did get home.
But now let’s move onto the cheerier subjects of Full Speed Ahead and Open Arms.
Full Speed Ahead introduces two pivotal characters in Epic, Polites and Eurylochus. Both of these characters have minor roles in the Odyssey. Polites is mentioned as being Odysseus’ “dearest friend” but isn’t mentioned much more beyond that. Eurylochus has a bit more to do. For example on Circe’s island, he begs Odysseus to just leave the men turned into pigs so his pessimistic characterisation in Epic is fairly similar to the Odyssey, although with more crying in the Odyssey. There’s actually SO MUCH crying in the Odyssey. The Greeks were pretty big on great shows of grief, beating chests, wailing, crying, the works. Guaranteed to make me WILDLY unsure of how to help and instead awkwardly offer out hankies and cups of tea if I ever saw it in real life.
In Epic: The Musical, Polites and Eurylochus are given much larger parts, even their own songs or solos. These two are perfect foils of each other, even in the manner and way they sing. Eurylochus has a deeper voice, often sings quite bluntly, whereas Polites is higher in pitch and much more melodic. They represent the two extremes of kindness and ruthlessness which Odysseus constantly struggles with. Take their reactions to the Lotus eaters island. Eurylochus’ first reaction is “I say we strike first.” Meanwhile in Open Arms, Polities mentions “why should we take when we could give?” he is challenging the status quo of ancient Greek warfare, the very common, almost expected notion that the Greeks would raid and take everything. This was so common and expected in the time of Homer that raiding and raids are basically throwaway lines. How do you think they got so many spoils of war without actually getting inside Troy for ten years?
Eurylochus isn’t all about ruthlessness though, and Polities isn’t always about simply kindness. Eurylochus often focuses on practicalities and is the voice of the soldiers. His first lines are in fact “600 men with big mouths to feed.” He reminds Odysseus of the duties he has toward the soldiers. Polities also isn’t all about kindness, but about a different angle of looking at things. In his own song “Open Arms” he gets Odysseus to confront his own inner demons, the guilt he is carrying. “I see in your face there’s so much guilt inside your heart, so why not replace it and light up the world.” So they’re also a representation of Odysseus’ inner and outer world, his duties against emotions. 
But continuing with ruthlessness, let’s move on to the last song of the Troy Saga. 
Warrior of the Mind.
(MUSIC)
 This is Athena’s great introduction in the music. It’s powerful, magnificent and catchy as all heck. Her presence in the Odyssey is so incredibly vital to Odysseus’ survival. Actually, not just in the Odyssey but other stories too such as the Iliad. Odysseus’ is a favoured hero of Athena’s, as she admires his wit and cunning. In the Odyssey that have a rather charming relationship (although that could be my interpretation because I first listened to the audiobook version narrated by Claire Danes and oh good grief, I too am Just A Man, Jorge. I too, am just a man)
Ahem
Anyways the pair in the musical have a much more turbulent relationship. In Warrior of the Mind, Athena gives him a breakdown of their history and a warning too, “don’t disappoint me.”
Athena mentions a boar only the best could kill, and I believe this line serves as a bit of foreshadowing. In book 19 of the Odyssey, Odysseus is back home on Ithica and is recognised by his former nurse maid due to the scar on his thigh which he got from a boar’s task. At this point he is still in disguise but still, the boar being mentioned here may come up later sagas so let’s keep an ear out!
Athena’s main musical instrument is the piano and she has a specific motif which you can hear right at the start of the song. But she is one of those motifs who can often be heard either before she appears or even where she doesn’t appear, suggesting she is always watching. This often happens in the Odyssey too. Athena will appear in disguise or be watching him from afar, always keeping an eye and having his back.
Athena as a character in epic, leans more towards ruthlessness than kindness or mercy. She seems to equate being ruthless with being a warrior of the mind. In other words, to be emotional is to be weak and unwise. This makes sense in the patriarchal world in which she operates, and we know Athena can also be ruthless in the myths too however I feel like Athena in myths isn’t quite so black and white. A lot of people point to what she did to Medusa (how she punished her priestess Medusa by turning her into a gorgon when Medusa was the victim of Poseidon), however I want to point out that that version of the myth, whilst popular, is Roman. When the Odyssey and the Iliad were written, Homer’s versions would have known Medusa to have been a born monster. Ovid was attempting to use metaphors to criticise the ruling classes without, you know, being offed for treason. Fair enough man, but it does mean that sometimes Athena gets a bit more of a harsh rep.
We could say a lot more about Athena and we will because now it’s time for the final segment of the podcast! As you might know from the very first episode, Jorge stuck around to answer some questions about each saga! So without further ado, let’s chat with Jorge!
(MUSIC) 
CHAT WITH JORGE
Thank you for listening to this episode of Greeks and Geeks. If you like this episode please don’t forget to rate it on Spotify or review it on Apple as that really helps! New episodes come out every Tuesday and once again thank you to Jorge for coming on to chat with me. I’ve attached his socials in the podcast description so if you haven’t followed him please do because he’s a delight and he gives a lot of musical behind the scenes too. Next Tuesday we’re taking on the cyclops saga! I’m your host Sabrina and I’m Geeking out! See you next time! Bye!