Epic the Musical: The Ocean Saga with Jorge Rivera-Herrans

Jorge Rivera-Herrans returns to discuss Epic the Musical: The Ocean Saga! The third saga of Epic: The Musical is dramatic and things take a turn for the worse for our hero as Poseidon comes to take revenge after the events of the Cyclops Saga.

Once again we compare the source material of the Odyssey to Epic: The Musical and see where the similarities and differences are.

Thank you to Jorge for returning for this episode and the other sagas too (also for creating an outstanding musical). Here's a link to his socials:

Listen to Epic the Musical now!
Follow Jorge on Tiktok

Follow me!
Tiktok: @SabrinaSalisburyWriter
Instagram: @sabrinasalisburywriter

Sources:
Epic: The Musical by Jorge Rivera-Herrans
The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson
Great Courses Odyssey of Homer- Elizabeth Vandiver, Ph.D.

Transcript

S2E5- The Ocean Saga

Hello and welcome to Greeks and Geeks, the podcast where I take us on persnickity but fun journey deep diving into the lore behind our favourite stories. I’m your host Sabrina and this is the fifth episode of a series long-deep dive into Epic: The Musical. And today really is a deep dive, because this episode is all about the Ocean Saga.

Before we begin I do recommend listening to at least the first two episodes of this season, my chat with the creator of the musical Jorge Rivera-Herrans, along with a breakdown of The Odyssey and its themes. It’ll give you much more context for this episode! He’ll also be returning at the end of this episode to talk about the Ocean saga!

Speaking of which, the Ocean saga follows on from the Cyclops saga, and is based on the books of the Odyssey where Odysseus himself is recounting his journey from Troy with his men to becoming the sole survivor stranded on Calypso’s island. However Epic: The Musical tells the story as though it was happening in real time.

Now I’m probably going to be pretty controversial here, try not to be too harsh with my radical opinions, but… a modern musical is PRETTY different to a thousands year old Epic: The Musical. SHOCKING. I KNOW. The Odyssey and the Iliad are thought to have been composed for the benefit of a mainly male audience as was performed over the span of three days. As a result, Epic: The Musical is adapted to suit a more modern audience and sensibilities. Jorge and I discussed this in the first episode but I think it’s particularly pertinent here in this saga, especially with the depiction of Poseidon.

But we’ll talk about that later. For now let’s get into discussing the first song, Storm.

Storm

I like to think of this saga as Epic Odysseus’ “find out” saga. As in Odysseus…well…wait I can’t say that expression on this podcast. Teacher. Gotta keep it PG. Let’s call it the reap saga to the Cyclops “sewing” saga. Storm opens with a grand orchestral theme, which, ever since Jorge mentioned Kingdom Hearts in our chat at the start of the season, along with Attack on Titan, I can’t unhear it. It’s so grand and, for lack of better phrase, epic in scale. In a way, the Ocean and therefore Poseidon are Odyssey’s main foes, so it makes sense for the anime-inspired battle music to really kick in throughout this saga.

Except I guess it’s not an Attack on Titan but more like Attack…from Olympian. Storm follows immediately after My Goodbye, Athena and Odysseus’ falling out. She insisted he “finish the job” and end the Cyclops life after blinding him. Odysseus refused and to top that off, even revealed his name and home address to the cyclops. Now the musical doesn’t include this part, but in the Odyssey, Polyphemus immediately calls to daddy- just like a big scary monster is expected to. 

Essentially, he calls on his father Poseidon to get revenge on Odysseus he literally curses him to the rest of the Odyssey. This is what he says in book nine:

“Listen, Earth-Shaker, Blue-Haired Lord Poseidon: acknowledge me your son, and be my father. Grant that Odysseus, the city-sacker, will never go back home. Or if it is fated that he will see his family, then let him get there late and with no honour, in pain and lacking ships, and having caused the death of all his men, and let him find more trouble in his own house.”

Which…damn. That’s literally exactly what happens in the rest of the Odyssey. Poseidon literally just took a look at Polyphemus’ curse and was like 10/10 no notes, we’ll do exactly that now who wants sushi? It’s kind of like if, when Mercutio is stabbed in Romeo and Juliet instead of cursing the Capulet and Montague house by simply saying “a plague on both your houses,” he literally goes. “A plague on both of your houses. May my friend kill the cousin of his beloved and be banished and may that beloved almost be forced to marry some dude named after a location before she fakes her own death but then they both actually die for reals to force your two stupid families to bury the hatchet. Also the Baz Lurhman movie version of this story has a banging soundtrack and will change every 14 year olds brain chemistry forevermore oh no I’m dead now….A PLAGUE ON YOUR HOUSES!”

Or you know… it’s basically like the opening of Romeo and Juliet which literally tells you the whole story I could have just said that and I’m literally so stupid I’m sorry. We’re getting WILDLY off topic right now.

As Epic: The Musical doesn’t have Polyphemus’ curse, it instead has Athena’s warning. “This day you sever your own head.” She is telling him that he’s made a reckless and sentimental decision by not killing the Cyclops. And we see her warning play out in this saga.

Odysseus’ journey is filled with exciting adventures. The lotus eaters, the cyclops cave, Aeolus, Circe’s island. But most of the time these adventures are separate and very episodic in nature. This makes sense in the same way older TV shows would have episodes with a nearly completely self-contained plot and the characters being instantly recognisable. For those of you listening who grew up in the era pre-streaming, pre-sky TV/Tivo for the Americans and other recording devices, you might have discovered your favourite TV show in the middle of its run, and been able to pick up on most of the plot devices and character archetypes very quickly. My favourite TV show when I was a kid was Frasier, because I was literally SO cool growing up you guys and I didn’t watch it from the very start, probably around season 4 is when I came in and then I caught up on re-runs and watched it totally out of order sometimes. These TV shows were written with the idea in mind that anyone might start watching at any time, from any place, and only once a week too so the story had to be easy to jump into.

Epic’s such as the Odyssey and Iliad are similar in that way, both for the performers and for the attendees. This is one of the reasons it’s suspected that characters have epitaphs such as “Poseidon, earth-shaker” and “grey-eyed Athene” (another pronunciation of Athena). It was designed so that each adventure could be told on its own. You can imagine an amateur performer, after a large feast, entertaining the guests by retelling their favourite part of the Odyssey, which they’ve learned off by heart.

As a result, these adventures of Odysseus aren’t actually linked too much (again, most of the time). The stories do make sense on their own. Odysseus and his men sail from the lotus eaters island, to the cyclops island, then when they escape, they travel to the home of the wind god Aeolus. Bish, bash, bosh.

Whereas in Epic: The Musical, the adventures are often linked narratively, which makes a lot more sense for a musical which is intended to be listened to over a few hours as opposed to the whole epic which, as mentioned, was performed over a few days. In Epic, The Lotus Eaters tell them to go to the Cyclops Island and then after hurting Polyphemus, Poseidon sends a storm which leads Odysseus and his crew towards the home of the wind god. Ok admittedly, it’s not confirmed if the storm in storm is divine as Odysseus even sings “it is nature, or divine?” however judging by Poseidon’s appearance in the saga later on, I think it’s safe to say it’s Poseidon’s doing but it’s all open to interpretation of course! 

The song ends with Odysseus discovering an island in the sky, the home of the great wind god Aeolus, and deciding to try and get to it using harpoons.

A lot of this song is basically trying to fight against the storm and survive, but one thing I haven’t mentioned yet is Eurylochus’ reactions because I think it’s much better to discuss those in the next song Luck Runs Out.

(MUSIC)

Luck Runs Out

Luck Runs Out is a great song. I remember the saga came out on Christmas day and I had to put down a bowl of potatoes because I was feeling too much. I’ll get to the line that struck me so much later, because I want to get into the nitty gritty of the characters and their relationships first. It’s time for some good ol’ fashion MEDIA ANALYSIS.

Eurylochus is the main singer in this song. It’s a duet between Eurylochus and Odysseus yes but I feel like Eurylochus is more of the central character here. The focus is on his emotional journey. We know from previous episodes that Eurylochus leans closer towards the ruthless side of things versus Polites and that he’s often the voice of the crew, reminding Odysseus of his duty to his men. A fact you can see in the Troy saga during Full Speed Ahead. When Eurylochus is introduced, the other soldiers sing backing vocals however when Polites is introduced, he is singing solo, with no backing vocals.

Odysseus’ plan is to go and ask the wind god Aeolus for help, but Eurylochus is fearful and pessimistic. He questions Odysseus “please don't tell me you're about to do what I think you'll do.” “What will we do when it tears us apart?” “how much longer til your luck runs out?” he’s filled with doubt about his captain. Without going into future sagas, it’s here I suggest that we see a bit of seeds of discord. If, and I’m not saying this will happen in the future for those of you that don’t follow Jorge’s social media and see updates, but if Eurylochus and Odysseus do end up falling out, I personally point to this moment as being the start of a breakdown between not just the pair, but perhaps the rest of the crew too.

At this point though, this doubt doesn’t appear to be him losing faith in Odysseus completely, but rather the aftermath of Polites’ death. Eurylochus frets about Odysseus losing his life or accidentally doing something which angers the gods and affects the rest of the crew. He just “doesn’t want to see another life end” and is scared to lose Odysseus as he is “the brother” he “could never do without.”

Odysseus, on this other hand, is still not quite feeling the consequences of his earlier outburst and revelation to Polyphemus. He’s full of that confidence and belief in his abilities which Odysseus is known for in Epic and in the original Odyssey. It’s also worth noting that he’s still carrying Polites’ teachings here, keeping them close to his heart. From “mercy is a skill” in the song remember them, to now singing that he “still believes in goodness” and wants to “lead from the heart.” Singing in those higher notes so reminiscent of Polites. And he’s still boasting that his 600 men went to war and not one of them died there. He’s confident in his own wit and also chides Eurylochus for planting seeds of doubt amongst the crew, something which just can’t be allowed to happen.

The song ends with a supposed coming-to-terms, an agreement of sorts. It should be a happy moment but it isn’t. There’s a hint of melancholy in the end chords, which suggests this conversation, or at least the emotions behind it, are far from over.

Which leads me to the final point of the song I want to discuss. The part that made me put down my roast potatoes. The line.

“You rely on wit and people die on it.”

*breathe* ok forget media analysis for a second because I need to FEEL things. Sometimes I just need to praise this bloody fantastic musical. I don’t have potatoes to put down right now so I’m just gonna bury my head in my hands for a second ok? Okay…

I don’t know what magic writing spell Jorge concocted when he wrote that absolute banger of a line, but if he could lend it to me as I write the second draft of my novel I would be so incredibly grateful because second drafts scare me.

No but seriously. Eight words. EIGHT WORDS. He got Odysseus’ character down and read for absolute filth in eight words. EIGHT WORDS AND A RHYME. Genius.

Eurylochus is completely correct here from a certain viewpoint. Odysseus prides himself on his wit and intelligence. It is why he is one Athena’s chosen favourites. And people do die because of it. The Trojan Horse caused the fall of Troy, the sacking of a city so violent and deadly that even the Greek-loving Olympian Gods turned on a lot of the Greek heroes for the crimes they committed there. Trying to rely on wit and a way with words caused Polyphemus to lock him and his men in a cave, where the cyclops proceeded to eat some of them.

But as genius of a line this is, is it too harsh on Odysseus? Possibly yes and also no. Maybe this line is harsh for Epic the Musical Odysseus but to be honest it isn’t harsh enough for Odyssey Odysseus in my opinion (haha) but that’s just my opinion of course! Plus we know that Eurylochus is more inclined to ruthlessness, wanting to “strike first” and raid the Lotus Eaters island. Eurylochus bias towards ruthlessness, plus the trauma of the Polyphemus encounter, is causing him to question things. Sort of like “if we’d done things the way I think we should have, then maybe people wouldn’t have died.”

However, we’ll have to wait until future sagas to see the character journey unfold. Again, no spoilers for where his journey will go. But we know from the Odyssey that all the men end up dead because they end up ignoring Odysseus’ instructions (in the Odyssey specifically, it’s when Oddy tells them not to eat the sacred cows of Helios as they will die but they do it anyway).

Regardless of where Eurylochus’ character ends up emotionally, we can definitely see some form of rift happening in this song and I’m excited to see where it goes…

Which actually leads me perfectly into the next song.

Keep Your Friends Close

(MUSIC)

I love the start of this song, as Odysseus greets the wind god and beseeches them for help getting past the storm and finally arriving home. The pan flutes at the start, the perfect floaty vocals of Kira Stone as Aeolus, it just makes me dance with Kate Bush arms you know what I mean? I mean Wuthering Heights Kate Bush not Running up that Hill Kate Bush. To be specific.

Also we have a return of the beloved winions! I think I’ve briefly mentioned the winions. They’re an Epic: The Musical special, not part of the original Greek Epic, and they’re greatly beloved. Essentially, they’re these little cat-like floaty creatures who can talk and often make mischief. Instead of the Lotus Eaters being human for example, they are Winions in this version. They’re back now as assistants to Aeolus and they cause more trouble than ever before! They also talk in this really cute way like “buh bye!” which instantly sells me on anything. I’m a simple creature, if you give me tiny thing that makes cute noises like Koroks with their “nyoh!” or “anyah!” and Animal Crossing characters with their “animal crossing noises” I’m going to love them and defend them with my last breath. Who cares if they’re responsible for the deaths of hundreds of men? These tiny creatures are CRIMINALS and I love them.

Whew! You got to see another side of me there didn’tcha? Don’t judge me too hard for it. Shall we get back into the scholarly stuff? Mmmhmm text books, mmhmmm refrences, mhmmm Emily Wilson.

Right I’ve got my head screwed back on now. 

Just like in the original Odyssey, Aeolus gives Odysseus a bag containing several directional winds. However, this time it’s the winds of the storm they faced in the last song. In the original, it’s simply all the winds which would carry them in the wrong direction, away from home, so all that’s left out of the bag is the wind which will take them to Ithica.  All they have to do is not open the bag.

Aeolus also warns Odysseus to keep your friends close and your enemies closer, and the winions chime in that “sometimes killing is a must” this is kind of played of as one of those dark comedic moments but I think, much like “luck runs out” this song has a lot of foreshadowing for the future plot elements.

Some examples of some lines from the winions are:

“never really know who you can trust”
 “friends turn into foes and rivalries”
 
 And in the previous song we have Eurolychus, however inadvertently, “planting seeds of doubt.” Are the winions suggesting that Eurylochus will betray Odysseus? And will it be just in this song, will Eurylochus be the one to open the bag or convince the others to do so, or are they talking about the much larger picture? I’d argue both.

See the interesting thing about the winions in this song is they’re acting very much like a Greek Chorus. For those of you that don’t know, in ancient Greek plays, a Greek Chorus is a group of performers who described and discussed the events of the play on stage, whilst the play was occurring, usually by singing or dancing. They’d often talk as one homogenous voice, They were sometimes visible to the other characters in the play and other times not, but they were the ones who gave context to the story for the audience. The soldiers sometimes act this way too. 

So what are the winions and the soldiers telling us, the audience? Nothing good.  

“Sometimes sneaking is a must”
 “Everything’s changed since Polites”

That line in particular, is so poignant. The moment Polites dies is a huge turning point for Odysseus’ character yes, but here we’re reminded that his death impacted everyone else too! And what does that spell for Odysseus and his relationship with his crewmembers? Only time will tell.

Then we come to the end of the song. Odysseus, just like in the original myth, claims he stays awake for nine days in order to protect the bag. This is one of those moments I referred to in episode 2 of this series. In the Odyssey, this part is Odysseus recounting the events in 1st person, to the Phaeacians and we know Odysseus can manipulate people easily, using his words to charm others. He is a man of many twists and turns. So are there parts of the tale where he’s fibbing? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. In our modern age we know that we need sleep to survive and we have studied the effects of insomnia. We know that after 36 hours without sleep, humans can start to hallucinate. After 48 you will automatically start entering brief periods of microsleeps, which will last several seconds. After 4 days (96 hours) without sleep you can literally enter into a state of sleep psychosis. Which, I don’t know what exactly it entails, but certainly doesn’t sound like afternoon tea at the Wolseley you know what I mean?

Odysseus claimed he was awake for 9 days. That’s 216 hours. For context, Randy Gardner was a man who was studied at Stanford university in the 1940s as he attempted to stay up for as long as possible. He stayed awake for 11 days and 24 minutes. He experienced symptoms such as paranoia, hallucinations and problems with him memory and suffered from serious insomnia for decades afterwards.

So scientifically Odysseus was probably able to stay up for so long, but I think he’s not telling the full truth here. Either he didn’t stay up for nine days or he stayed up and was out of his mind for chunks of it and either forgot, or downplayed that non-heroic sounding part to the Phaeacians. Am I being pedantic? Yes. But I do say at the start of my podcast that this is a PERSNICKITY journey and also I have a psychology degree, let me flex it from time to time eh? The early days of psychology, before ethics got involved, are absolutely wild.

Regardless of how long or how out of it he was (maybe the winions are part of his hallucinations at certain parts of the song? That would be funny), anyways, he eventually succumbs to sleep.

I love this part in Epic because Penelope speaks! And I love Penelope so of course I’m going to be biased. She is the one who tells Odysseus to wake up because his soldiers are opening the bag. Is this a dream, or is Penelope really reaching out to him via some romantic mythical connection, or is this one of those sleep deprived hallucinations? I don’t know and I don’t care because it’s PENELOPE!!!! :D let the record state that this script has 4 exclamation marks and a big smiley emoji here. Regardless of which one it is (I like the romantic mythical connection because I’m a sucker for romance, but also I find the hallucination one funny), Odysseus is too late to prevent the soldiers opening the bag.

This is so unbelievably frustrating and devastating. It’s a part that’s missed out of Epic in favour of Penelope being present (so no complaints from my end) but in the Odyssey, it’s mentioned that they get so close to Ithica they can spot individual famers at work in the fields. The are a hairs breadth away. It’s here where I admit, at least at this part, Odysseus is a better dude than me, because I would be yeeting people off that boat SO fast you would not believe. I’m actually surprised Odysseus kept his temper at this part. At least he doesn’t mention losing it. Considering we know he’s gotten angry at less. Is this another example of Odysseus concealing the whole truth to his audience, or is this an example of good leadership, that this was punishment enough for his soldiers?

In the original Odyssey, they get blown back to Aeolus, who’s all like “seriously my guys? Are you joking? Nah there’s no way you can be that unlucky. You must be enemies with Olympus and I’m not helping you again if that’s the case. So much like the winions, Aeolus is like ‘buh-bye!’” and so the continue on with their next adventure.

And this is where Epic and the Odyssey have one of their biggest differences in terms of the plot. In Epic, they get blown off course straight into one of the big antagonists of Epic- right into Poseidon’s open arms. But I don’t think Polites would have liked the kind Poseidon is welcoming them with, as Odysseus is about the find out in the final song of Epic: The Ocean Saga.

Ruthlessness

(MUSIC)

Poseidon in Epic is a much more present figure. In the Odyssey, he’s almost a force of nature type god, working behind the scenes. He doesn’t ever confront Odysseus the way he does here. Again, we’re talking about the differences between a modern musical and an ancient epic. The Gods aren’t often portrayed as directly antagonistic against another human in Greek stories. Often instead they’ll be behind the scenes, setting them up for a downfall, such as Hera against Heracles. I’m struggling to think of any instances of 1-on-1 confrontations actually, at least in ancient Greece. Stories like that often come much later, in the form of Roman interpretations of the Greek myths, such as Ovid’s metamorphoses.

But again, we have that boss battle style music, the introduction of Poseidon, booming, and a little “danger is near” motif that’s run through the story in the background is at it’s loudest for obvious reasons. I also have to mention the incredible vocals of Steven Rodriguez here because my god what a voice…. Sorry that pun was actually unintended this time but I’m keeping it in!

Here we have a completely new, original to Epic scene. Poseidon confronts Odysseus for blinding Polyphemus and declares “the pack of wolves is swimming with the shark now.” Implying that these once apex predators, these city-sackers and victors over Troy, are completely out of their depth in his domain.

Poseidon is also an antagonist that claims “ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves” and “you could have avoided this if you’d killed my son, but nooo” and “you are far too nice, mercy has a price.”

Basically Poseidon is very much an anti-Polites. The whole song is basically an admonishment of kindness and mercy, and Poseidon emphasises this by forcing Odysseus to apologise and when Odysseus tries to explain his actions, proceeds to wipe out most of his crew until only 43 are left alive. This is a huge turning point in the story, as so much has been put on Odysseus keeping his men alive, it’s been a point of pride, almost hubris, for him. And we know very much that hubris is a popular fatal flaw in Greek mythology, like Icarus flying too close to the sun, Odysseus pride was burned to ash as he watches most of his men drown. He manages to escape with his remaining men by using the last of the wind confined in the bag Aeolus gave him but Poseidon sings “Remember me” in such a menacing way, a master of throwing Odysseus’ words right back in his face and also setting up future confrontations. This isn’t over yet.

So where are we now? In terms of ruthlessness, we have seen Athena abandon Odysseus and Poseidon kill most of his men. Is all hope lost? Well maybe not quite. I mentioned those light motifs in episode 2. Athena’s is a short piano medley. If you listen carefully, you can hear it in the song, suggesting that Athena is watching the events occur. Will this have an affect on her? We know her character will have an arc, and the relationship between her and Odysseus is different, something we discussed in the Troy saga. What does she think of Poseidon’s ruthlessness and will it impact her character growth? Something we’ll have to find out in future sagas…

Also something I didn’t mention in the Cyclops saga, is that when Odysseus reveals himself to Polyphemus, he says that he is the cyclops “darkest moment.” Right here, Poseidon says the same thing to Odysseus, but the notes are switched around. Where Odysseus sings high to low, Poseidon sing low to high. The music is telling us that these moments mirror each other, but also that Odysseus fortunes are now flipped.

Does this mean Odysseus will now move on and fully subscribe to ruthlessness, will he become jaded or depressed? What does this mean for him and HIS character journey.

At the end of the song we hear an absolutely haunting rendition of the line “when does a man become a monster?” from Just A Man, sung by the dying soldiers. Does this imply that this is a moment of turning for Odysseus character, or is this the way he’ll be thought of by the dead soldiers and their families. And what of his kleos? Will it impact his glory? So many questions to discuss in future sagas, but I believe the Ocean saga really sets the stage for future character moments I can’t wait to see unfold.

But for now, it’s time for another chat with Jorge!

(MUSIC)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Greeks and Geeks. I hope you’ve had a lot of fun. If you have please do consider giving me a follow and rating as that really helps me out! Did you know that the number 1 way to grow a podcast is through word of mouth? So tell all your friends too! Stay tuned as next week I’ll be tackling Epic: The Circe Saga. I’m your host Sabrina and I’m Geeking Out! See you next time! Bye!